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Dr. Eric Schaffer: Welcome to another edition of Human Factors International Usability Broadcast Network. Today I have the real pleasure and I am welcoming Dr. Susan Weinschenk, CEO, HFI. And we're going to talk about particularly today of mentoring and also institutionalization of usability. If you remember last time we talked about the Royal Bank of Canada. We had a group there that were talking about how they were institutionalizing usability and how usability was playing a great role in improving their public web presence. So that was really interesting to me. And this time I think we're going to see a whole range of possibilities to support institutionalization and also to support individuals who want to become better practitioners in usability work. So that's what we're going to do. And let me just first talk a little bit about Susan, because Susan is an old friend from way back and it's a great joy to have her back working together and on the team. She's going to be our Chief of Advanced Studies and Projects, what does that mean? Chief of Advanced Studies and Projects? That sounds really good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It sounds good, yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It sounds important. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Advanced studies, people who want to learn more about usability, advanced projects, I hope I get some of the interesting projects. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, and we actually signed up and did a lot of good stuff. You got the mundane ones so like you know. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) Part of what I think Susan's going to be doing you know if you look at the technology and the way that you do user interfaces, it hasn't changed much in years. I mean it started out as main thing that may be went (inaudible). Now it's a little different. Now it's more like main thing again. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, we've come backward that's the problem. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And I hope you're going to find a way to go forward. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I am ready to go forward. (Laughter) yeah, I heard someone say lately that we're in the dark ages of (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: What's the life going to look like, can you give a hint of what you're thinking? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh my goodness! What's the life gonna look like? We're going to be we're not going to have to use passwords. Dr. Eric Schaffer: No more passwords? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No more passwords, thank God. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's going to be like microchips and... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No, we already know how to use that now. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And thumb and voice prints. So we're going to do that. So no more passwords. Screen is in the wallpaper. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Hm. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. So I have lot's of vision. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So things (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Things work into our environment. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And now I think there's a lot of voice, because I'm really into voice. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's true. In fact we wanted to think, let me talk a little bit about your background. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And so I guess we actually go back 25 years in the field, which is (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I want to (inaudible) so far that there weren't screens. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, that's it. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And you could still do good usability tests with that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: But I don't want to. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) (laughter) (inaudible) That's part of the old set. I have to do a new script. And you have three books that you have done. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Three books I've done. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Including (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Including the (inaudible). That is (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: I really like the web cast. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I like the web cast. It's you know, I always you know the computer in Star Trek that always (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I always wanted that, but how does that work? But we have a long way to go. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's not like there you have to (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's not, no. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It takes some of the... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's there, but it's (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's not good at typing, right? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Not yet. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So depressing (laughter). And Susan also had a wonderful company that I felt was one of the best in the field, the Weinschenk Consulting Group, and that was really fascinating. You started that after (inaudible) the former facility that was the precursor. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: And at the Weinschenk Consulting Group what you were doing was so close to work HFI was doing, it seemed really startling. I mean you have to see the slide. If you look at what the Weinschenk Consulting Group was doing, you had training, you had complete sort of training. You had developed a methodology, you had the interface 5 which was a wonderful user centered development methodology and you built a tool set around it. And all that was I think around a vision that we share of institutionalization of usability. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's now time to actually do that. It's now time to move from an industry which is (inaudible) it is a little like the (inaudible) you have somebody who thinks it's really good and they go up in a corner and they do the usability work, but now it's time that we got a systematic that we approach the usability work with a solid set of training, with a solid set of methodologies, quality assurance tools, all the things that it takes to really reliably do a repeatable professional job. So that's I think something that we share and I think it's really exciting. So Susan is joining HFI to make that vision happen. Another of the pieces, and I think many good friends and people who are certified are listening and the ones who, yeah, want to hear about that it is the joining of our two certification programs. Your certification dates back to? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: 1992. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That was really forward thinking. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And what we're doing is we're bringing together Susan's certificants from the Weinschenk Consulting Group with the HFI COAs and that will make clearly the industry's premered certification for usability in the software space. So I think that that's very exciting and we're seeing more and more people really world wide who are going and taking the certification exam and passing it. We had a group in India pass at the last summer. I am very proud of them. So we're really seeing some good progress there and we welcome the new certificants from the Weinschenk Consulting Group. Can you share with people little bit from your sense what you see as the character of the usability field as it changes, as it moves from the early doctor phase to main stream part of system development? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, we're seeing a lot of maturity. We're seeing maturity in people and that's part of the whole certification idea. And we're seeing maturity in methodology. And what I was saying was my clients as I in the last year I saw a real shift where I would go into a meeting and instead of me telling them that you need to follow a methodology, they would say to me here's a methodology we're using and if there are any comments you can give us. But you know, it's in place. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But what makes a mature methodology? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: What makes a mature methodology? It needs to be consistent. It means you have to be able to replicate it on all the projects, on a variety of projects. And people have to be trained in it. They have to understand it and buy into it. Not only the people who are dealing with stuff, but the larger people around them that have to interact with them. So not everybody has to know how to do the full methodology, but you need a larger and larger number of people in the organization who understand and buy into the methodology. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So if part of it is the quality of the methodology... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That is also having that methodology really instantiated into the environment where it's accepted where there's an infrastructure. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Without even a question (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: I was meeting one of the largest software companies on earth just a couple of weeks ago, not in the US, and I met with them and they said, oh we have this great methodology. This looks very, very good. We have this great training program. This looks very good. And I was like, so why is your software so bad (laughter). And... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And the answer was... Dr. Eric Schaffer: The answer, one of the answers, I remember them, but one of the answers was well, we have that plan but when we went and got to the point of telling the project managers we need to go out and gather data from users, they went ah we can't, we don't have time for that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And so if you're not going gather data from users, you're going to see a minus. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right (laughter). Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You can't do that or you'll see minus. So I think there's a real change. And one of the other things that I've been doing is working on that methodology of making the change and I think we have a shared vision of that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's really good to see how companies, I think it's fair to say companies go through some very typical stages. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: They do. I think it is like an evolution they go through. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And they're also going down the evolution. Do you see that? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Road blocks, blind valleys, dark pits you can fall into, yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laugher) I always (inaudible) because look, usability, usability is important or we're going to, we don't have to do, we'll have people personalize it. Let them do the design. In a way it's some kind of technological solution... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That was a good one. But what I see people go sort of is that they start with a wake up call with the organization and it's different from the way that a individual has a wake up call. An individual kind of goes ah ha, I get it. But an organization's going to need you know thousands of ah has. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. It is something they're going to touch. Because I think the wake up call has to touch more than one small group. It's something that happens that affects the business side, the IT side, the usability side. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And that can be that catastrophic event. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Hopefully not, or it could be, yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But there are other methods too. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I mean you're going to do an expert review and get it. You can... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You can get actually a wake up call (inaudible) or you can get (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, you can have it the easy way or the hard way, but it's coming. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's coming, yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And then from and one of the I think the signs that the wake up calls really happen is that executive champion is there. And with the executive champion in place, I think that you can really begin. And without that you have some individuals in the organizations trying to do good work. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But it's not serious (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Where economy gets so far is get a little progress and then you'll fall back. So that's a very important one. I think that's a real tough one. And one of the things that I really appreciate is what people are doing recently is helping people identify you know where there's a executive champion, who is the executive champion, how you go out and find one? Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. And then what does the executive champion really do, yeah. (Laughter) and it's only part of, obviously the executive champion gets funding and builds some Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Road maps, but I think the secret is the mind set. Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The mind set. Dr. Eric Schaffer: They have the mind set. Well, the (inaudible) is the executive champion needs to understand why usability is important to that organization. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And it's different for different organizations. It may be cut down call time. It may be reducing correct tickets. It may be... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: To sell more, whatever it is. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. And they have to go in repeating that. And the mind set is remember we need to do usability. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It only if there is a business need for it. And so once you have that, then you can really proceed. And I think it makes sense to get a vendor like HFI to come and help set up the strategy and the infrastructure and all that training and methodology is very important. I think that having solved organizational design with central usability group, there is never a case where you don't need a central usability group. They are a small organizations, it may be all you have. But the central usability group has a whole set of things that they do to advance and to move usability they have. I guess what we got to do is have a survey question here and I think we actually have the technology of working with them (laughter). They are feeling confident in the back I can see. And so the question that we have is where is your organization in terms of the usability effort? And we will give them four categories, be totally (inaudible) which is to say that you may have personally or may be individuals there that care about usability even that are trained practitioners, but the organization as a whole doesn't yet understand the importance of usability they're not really involved in it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, none of them are (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) I hope none of HFI (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter). Dr. Eric Schaffer: But we'll see. The second level which we are trying is an occasional process. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Sort of they are moving there is the executive champion that makes it go through. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But they are trying some and there also the third one is they are actually starting to make a routine. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And the fourth is they are really established and it's happening. So where's the organization? Just indicate 1, 2, 3, or 4 there and we've got. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: We're going to see it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I know. I'll be interested to see it. Dr. Eric Schaffer: We'll actually just sit here and wait until we have all. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No, we aren't. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) And we have 10 seconds left to the end of this all and make sure that you're still scratching your head. Well, yes. It should be (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: If they are still scratching their head then they are totally (inaudible) (laughter). We'll find them. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. We'll find out. I have a few and (inaudible) n number there that we want. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And we'll give them something to do. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. One of the things we're going to do now is move them to be focusing on the issue of mentoring. Because we talked a little bit about institutionalization and I want to talk about and have Susan talk about where mentoring fits in, and her experience having developed the mentoring practice over quite a few years now. When did you start mentoring? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: 1992. Dr. Eric Schaffer: 92. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's the same... Dr. Eric Schaffer: Mentoring and the certification. So that's also been long time 11 years. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. But I think to me mentoring is an outstanding ability. And I'm really excited about it because of the nature of our field. The usability field is a field where you can go and you can get a doctor in the field and come out and be fully prepared to start running how to do this work (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. And as any doctor prepares you to learn about the field. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. And then what happens is as you go out to industry... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And as it is today and has been since we've both been in a quarter of a century. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Oh (laughter) yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: What mattered what's who are you and it works well. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And you hope that you had somebody who had the experience and the maturity to lead you to be able to really do these activities to really do user centered design process and if you didn't and so many people ended up individuals in the middle of a huge organization Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. And then you just work (inaudible) and so now we have the ability with the mentoring process to take people beyond the education that they get in the school, beyond the education they get in training programs and really bring them to some maturity in terms of being able to do the tasks. And I think we see mentoring as having two main areas which really is exciting part of it is mentoring to support institutionalization of usability. Because the people both the executive champion and the head of the usability organization have some very significant demands. And if they don't really understand what they are doing, if they don't have the ability to deal with all of those hurdles and road blocks and pit falls, then it's not going to succeed. So I see mentoring in that sense as the continued turbo charging that keeps that effort going either once you've got the infrastructure in place to keep bringing that program through to successful completion. That's part of it. The other part is for practitioners. And I think practitioners being able to achieve the kind of maturity, both of us have had people reporting to us and we've you know we've (inaudible) step by step of understanding how to really do this work. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And the usability field, I think, is almost unique in its task because we're dealing with human beings and so the nuances the subtleties are almost infinite. Anybody could do an interview but it takes a lifetime to get good at it. Anyone can design a screen but doing it well really takes a long time. So let's talk a little bit about how do you see mentoring and what your experience has been. Can you tell us a little bit about mentoring and what your experience's been starting the mentoring (inaudible) (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, you know I started doing it because I really felt that we had (inaudible) degree, as you said, or (inaudible) you know, your classes and my classes and it didn't feel like there was anything in between. So what happens when you take in all the classes, but you don't want to get the masters or the Ph.D. and start right now, how do you learn more? How do you grow more? And that's really why I started it. And then I found it was this wonderful vehicle. It's very intense. It's very focused. And I think the thing that's most important about it to me is that it focuses on the person or the people and not just the skills. So it's really about growing people and taking them to the next level of their own usability doing (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Say a little bit about how it physically gets done. People come to you, right? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Sometimes I go to them. But most of it has been people coming, I was in the wonderful resort tropical (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Wisconsin and believe it or not (inaudible) winter (inaudible) and... Dr. Eric Schaffer: It is beautiful (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: We have a great facility out there. And so most of the mentoring that I have done, people come to our facility. I think one of the most important things to do ahead of time is we sit down over the phone usually that I have the person think about what do you want to do? What is it you need to learn? What's the next step for you? Sometimes I know and sometimes they're like I don't know and then I have to help them through that. So the people of this group will talk about that as well as their you know their manager or their sponsoring organization to the (inaudible) and they'll personally have to value to the organization paying for it. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's good focus. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's very focused. So we figure out all together what should we do at the time. But it's very flexible. Sometimes when people come and say what is this mentoring thing, what are we doing, well, it's not a class. And it's not consulting. So what is it? So we structure the time so they may say I need to learn this task or I need to talk about this problem. Part of it is discussion. Part of it is working on real case studies or (inaudible) case studies. I have a question though. I (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Oh really? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. (Inaudible) question. So I would like to know from the people listening in here which of these things do they feel they need the most help on, because these are some of the typical kinds of things that we do during mentoring. So one thing might be we have usability insights. We're making it routine, but we hit some road blocks so we think this might be a blind alley, so help in fine tuning the usability test within the organization. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And that strategy includes all the different pieces and it's like a big puzzle. Do we put standards in place... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh yes. It might be the tools they're using or how they're going to put them in place. It might be staffing issues. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It might be also political (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Absolutely. Dr. Eric Schaffer: They never help themselves, no. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No. Always political. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) for getting the acceptance of the process. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: All of that, yeah. May be getting higher up the speed (inaudible) gas to the people that are already there. Professional development for senior staff, or planning on the best practices within, I'm going to talk more about these two in a minute. So if you if our audience will poll in about 10 more seconds to vote here, which one do you think you would need the most? So these are some of the typical things that people come for mentoring. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Seems like I got a pretty wide group of options there. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh (inaudible) the thing that says it needs to be flexible. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. So why don't you talk a little bit about just how you are going to go through the... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, the other things that I'd like to talk about, I want to talk about what am I doing is, I said it wasn't training. I said it wasn't consulting. So exactly how is it different. Examples of ways that we do mentoring with clients, what makes for a successful mentoring session, what are the characteristics, do you want to start your own internally, do you want to come to us, what's the best way to do it? (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. And last time I talked about it a little bit about the strategy of mentoring. So that's what we're going to talk about. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. So help me understand... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Help me understand. I have it on the table. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's actually kind of complicated. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. Yes, no, yes it is. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Well okay. Let's talk together (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Alright. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's not consulting. It's not (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And first of all, (inaudible) so I can't describe it. Well I don't want I mean consulting, training, on the job training those are very important things. I don't mean to put them down as I (inaudible) this way and having question marks and there was no, doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with them. But I'm just trying to point out what is especially different about mentoring. So what is consulting? In a consulting you get an expert whose real work is to attending small groups, but the focus is not on the person, right? Dr. Eric Schaffer: You're trying to get the job done. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: We got a product. He has to make it more usable, right? Dr. Eric Schaffer: And so there's a tendency, not that I would ever do this, but to just go actually the answer to this I'll tell you that (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, (inaudible) Eric did that. I know Eric, he's never done that. So that's one of the jobs that consulting does. It doesn't focus on the person. The other drawback is on that last line. It doesn't necessarily make a transition from training I mean it's just about real work. So you're not necessarily learning. You might and you can certainly (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Good consulting does a transfer (inaudible). But consulting in itself is not about growing a person. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, and so you're coming out of the training program, you've learnt about doing interviews. And then just kind of web cast (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) the next time about training. You know, training hopefully is (inaudible) contact with an expert, but doesn't really do your real work, right? And it's not one on one. It may not be. So training, I believe in training, but training also doesn't hit the same thing that mentoring does. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's a good foundation. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's the most beautiful foundation. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It must be frustrating if you have to just mentor who's good... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You can't mentor someone who didn't come to training. So you start with training and then you come from that training. That's kind of important. (Inaudible) just doing a mini class for one person. And that's the (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Really (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So what happens is they start with a foundation of understanding the foundation to understand the visual, intellectual, memory, motor activities... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: They start with you know what we call (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And that's really the best starting place. And then I mean I don't always go to this place, but the best thing to do is if you're doing practitioner mentoring is to have them do corporate training and then come for mentoring. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Now if you have say an executive champion... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: That's different. Because they're not going to go through the corporate training. Dr. Eric Schaffer: We shouldn't make them. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No (laughter). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, we have the best stuff for them. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's true. The class is just for them. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The best class that's for them. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's right. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: On the job training (inaudible) executive (inaudible) On the job training has some good things about it, but it's not going to definitely not going to (inaudible) as mentoring. So what mentoring does is it does all of these things and I think that again I'm going to stress this again it is very intense. It's very, I've talked with (inaudible). So you can get very dramatic results in a real short amount of time. Dr. Eric Schaffer: In terms of dealing with specific issues that also primarily with improving a person's ability to work on an ongoing basis. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You improve the person's ability so that skill sets that you're working on or for making decisions if it's a strategy. Dr. Eric Schaffer: How molecular does... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: How molecular does (laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: I mean in another way if you look at what you could mentor on, you can mentor obviously on the big things of our strategy and what is the dynamics... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: How slowly would you be mentoring on this you know how to do questionnaire and how to do.... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Eric Schaffer: If it was... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Absolutely, yeah, I mean basically you're asking you know what is it this person needs to go to the next level and if what it needs is I need to lean how to facilitate that interview sessions with user, you know. Like people come and say I am a usability engineer. I've been to all classes. I've been doing this for 5 years, but you know what, I'm still not good at doing interview sessions for users. I freeze, I'm not comfortable, and I really need to learn how to do this in order to be a General (inaudible). So it could be that small. Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, very good, okay. Talk a little bit about the issue of what the trigger points are that would cause somebody to want to actually do mentoring. What do you (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, there are some number of different scenarios. We talked about find tuning and usability strategy. So that... Dr. Eric Schaffer: So that would be I've got an institutionalization program and... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, (inaudible) we're doing for the, yes. Usually what happens is we have everything set up, I have my strategy in place and I hit a major road block. I got all of a sudden the champion is gone, right. Gone to another organization or they are having, there's a fight suddenly about usability has become so successful that now within the organization they're fighting about where it should be. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yes, and that organization (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right, and it's been over here I know (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You feel it. Well, it (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So things like that happen. Dr. Eric Schaffer: This time we're I think that give me five different places. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh it's been moving around. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Let's just figure out (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So if they hit a road block or a sort of situation like that and may feel they need help getting past that or deciding what to do. I've had a chance where you have an established usability group and you have new people coming in. And (inaudible) the process, but it's like we don't have this (inaudible) for them to get up to speed, you know. They got to hit the ground running and so those come to me and I'll get them up to speed really, really quickly. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And so this is addressing (inaudible) one thing that I think is a huge (inaudible) in institutionalization programs where if you hire a bunch of people who are not seasoned usability practitioners and put them in place, and if you don't have a solid program to get them up to speed, guess what? They're not any better than the people that were there in the first place. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And then you're going to look for them and go I could design a screen better than that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And they're right. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And you know what, it's not even that they are necessarily using usability, but that they are new to that organization and the way that that organization works. So a lot of times I work with if I've been working with that organization, I know the methodology, I know the projects, you know I can actually grab the whole of them, bring them in for a couple of days and... Dr. Eric Schaffer: And show them how to be successful. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Even if it's (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: That's another web cast, isn't it right for another. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I guess that will be (inaudible) (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I am going through that in here. Why don't we do that? We should do that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Really good. That'll come. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Filling gas, I mentioned that. And in a situation of someone not being comfortable doing a usability test (inaudible). Here's an interesting one, senior staff will then do all the training, they're certified, they've been in the field for 10 years, they got all the common sense, but you want to keep growing, right? And I actually have a number of people like that doing, it's in their training program plans for the year is to come to training with Susan. And then they get to pick you know what they want to study. And that's the (inaudible) really wonderful. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's really good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You should really get into some new topics and usual topics and (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: And it seems to me that in a sense if you look at here's a big bank or the buck is having those top people is sort of like having the queen in the right position Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Like having... Dr. Eric Schaffer: On a chess board (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) and getting what they need. It's very important. I think they tend to get overlooked because they're trying to get some new people up to speed. The next one is agreement on best practices. I have one with whom they were arguing what's the right way to facilitate usability tests, and to be actually well played, and we videotaped each of them, and then I got to they didn't want to teach each other but you know Susan says do it this way not that way, so you know that's outside. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So best practices, being on best practices within the group and then the last one quick (inaudible). Sometimes I had someone come. They were going to do a pay for further typing and they'd never done pay for further typing. Just like aah they have the scheduled what is the technique for doing that well. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Rather than having the first couple of projects (inaudible) before you kind of get there. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You come in. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Come in for a couple of days, get a quick tutorial, and ready to go. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: What makes it successful? Three tests (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: I know. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You do? Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: What? Dr. Eric Schaffer: You do (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: That is (inaudible) you know (laughter) saying that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think it's true I don't know but it's the first one (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's the first one (inaudible) mentor. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You know, I do. I love it. I love it, that's why. It is one thing that I just really enjoy is this kind of interaction. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: But let's talk about all of this. So let's talk about... Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) let's talk about that (inaudible) mentor are important. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And part of it is being focused on nurturing the person. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And part of it is also having the level of experience and facility with all the different parts of the usability field so that you can take people with confidence really all the different places (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: They need to go. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Because that's not an easy thing you know when you look at things like getting somebody ready to do mentoring within a company. It's not so easy. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, it's not an easy thing. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's not an easy thing. Well, the mentor has to be an expert. Now I did write this to describe myself so now you said I was a (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Really (inaudible) sense of (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I know. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. So anyway, a mentor needs to be an expert. He needs to be an excellent teacher, kind of a coach, (inaudible) encouragement, confidence building, sometimes maybe often a therapist. Because people are actually talking (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Because you're really improving them. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. You're really improving them and checking with their problems and everything within the organization. And then the last one which is you know really dedicated to the growth of individuals. So it's not just about fixing the problem or fixing the organization. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think I might have a real tendency to just go okay, do this and... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) (Inaudible) No, it's true. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) I will mentor you. I'm happy to be your mentor. May be we could do that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That could work, I mean we're in session. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) therapy (inaudible) (laughter). Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Fine the next one says (laughter) (inaudible) talent. If I can (inaudible) good mentor I can anybody to be a good mentor. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Anybody to be a good mentor. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Now the next thing that's really important now is the people that are coming and I can't under estimate I mean I am not a good mentor if they are not ready to be there. So... Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) I mean I remember the early days (inaudible) of teaching usability I go around and you know talk about why we're here and it was like I got sent (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And my management saw my (inaudible) and they don't understand that they're really good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's like (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) I had one or two sessions where (inaudible) and I realized how important this is. So Dr. Eric Schaffer: For somebody to really (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) got to be there ready to change, ready to grow, really motivated to be there. Only a few people at a time, four or five is really about the max number. I mean lot of times I do it one on one. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So I mean I can teach a class of 28 people. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I can teach a class of 100 people. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I can teach classes of (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I can teach a class of 300 people (laughter). You can. You can teach a class of more people and it can certainly be very effective, but mentoring got to be small. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Because you're really focused on... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Individual, yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That makes sense. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And now it's what the, the fact is that they are ready to learn that's what the next experience is really dramatic. That's why people grow, and they go from here to here in a very short amount of time. So they're not (inaudible). Right, third one. The environment, it has to be in a frozen place, (laughter) no, no, no. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Wisconsin is (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Exactly focus is one. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, I had one guy (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: People come in February, you know. I had one guy come from Norway and he was very comfortable (laughter). He had a you give me I can think as a special environment. So although I do sometimes go to their offices, (inaudible) come in and do that, I always asked about where we're going to be. What's the room going to be like. I think it's best if you are away from where you normally are, especially with this idea of talking about problems, talking about issues, talking about road blocks. People are much freer to talk about that if they're really not in the building where all of that is going on. So they need to feel that it's safe. It doesn't (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) worth while in the facility last time (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, we previously (inaudible) and actually they were working a lot better, but actually it's best you know... Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yes. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Not having your options you make someone (inaudible) if they have to they can check their email when we take a break. But really the idea is to satisfy special (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Special space for just sort of (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And then you know (inaudible) I am going to mentoring. You know I'm going to put everything else aside, I'm going to put myself in a special set of mind and be ready. And that's the best part of it, getting ready. Yeah. I call it going to the mountain top even though (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, it's sort of (inaudible), right? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) A time frame is mentoring is best when it's focused and when it's very intense. So you can only hold that intensity for a short amount of time. So actually, it's best to do it one, two, the most I've done at one sitting was four days. And that was really a lot. So two to three days, sometimes just one day, but usually two or three days very intense days. And then you go away and you know that might be all you do (inaudible) or may be you go away and you try out what we talked about, may be you come back a month later, two months later, six months later, and do another set. So... Dr. Eric Schaffer: And I think particularly the institutionalization situation really regularly every quarter or so. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right, some things change, right. The situations change. So it is important that nothing's too long because (inaudible). And then the last thing on the list is what you're going to work on. And this is customized, I said that before. And it needs to be very flexible. I don't just mean flexible in just (inaudible) okay this group of people coming I'm going to do this, but what I find is that when people get there, they are certainly wanting to work (inaudible) and when they get there and you know what? In the first hour we all figure out that's not what they really need. You know, what they really need is different. So it's got to be flexible. So we always have an agenda and then we're feel free to mess with these as much as we need to. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: So you're trying to get to get to really the core issue that they are always holding in the back. They may be talking about a particular skill, but you need to find (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's amazing that you... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh that is another skill. Actually the reason they say I have a hard time doing interviews, is because they don't understand something else. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So it can be right subject right trigger something like that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: That's right. So what so it's always flexible. I really have to understand that what we end up with may not be what we've started with. And actually, the digressions we do often are as important as the things that are on the agenda. So the very concept prepares that you know we figure it out as we go along. And (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: We'll do it. We can do it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You do it. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Let me (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And if we mess with that (inaudible) (laughter). Dr. Eric Schaffer: You are not feeling any pressure. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, I can do it (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, so we'd like to know which of the following best describes your organization, okay. Whether you use the formal mentoring program now for the usability staff. What do you do in formal mentoring? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The first one is see I have (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) You have to answer that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) is you have a formal program (inaudible) it's for mentoring. That's the question. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Or do you think (inaudible) informal, informal. Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: At the officer (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: I've done that. It's okay. Let's not tell people what to do, but any way. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: I'm working on it (inaudible) mentoring it. And then... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) you have 10 seconds. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So this is (inaudible) okay, so this is whether or not you are doing mentoring or whether (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Whether doing (inaudible) or not doing it at all or whether you think that may be they are kind of doing it that don't have they will follow up mentoring and it's not a mentoring program. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. And I guess I can relate to that because informal mentoring is something that you see any (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Usability (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The usability group I think that were more senior people helping them all. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But I think part of the problem is when I look at the industry I'm probably getting into lot of trouble, but the problem there are only, there might be a dozen people who I know of who are really fully mature mentors who like being in that position. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, it's... Dr. Eric Schaffer: And one organization... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, it's a special... Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's a special position. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, you don't necessarily get to work on a project that you are mentoring. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. (Inaudible) you are working on people inside a project. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: And a lot of us use the (inaudible) and work on the projects. I like the projects. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You like the projects? Dr. Eric Schaffer: You can (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So my title should be Chief of Advanced People? Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: If they're in projects. Dr. Eric Schaffer: No, it's Chief of Making People Advanced. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Alright. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Internal or external. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. So this is the issue of doing try to do mentoring within an organization if we can and you know let's get one of you know those top people (inaudible) or one of those kinds of folks and say alright you know I can have that person worth mentoring. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Or do I use an external mentoring facility like this. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. So I would like to say most of my clients are doing the external or coming to me for. And some of the reasons we have been talking about is it's not easy to do your own internally. I have a couple of clients who have set it up internally and it's very powerful. And actually, I have a couple of clients who do both. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Why would they do both? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, you know a mentor is a mentor. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And may be because (inaudible) somebody, right? Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) what it is they do both. If you are a large usability group I had at some point you know 25, 30 usability engineers in a company. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's going to be a small group (inaudible). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I know. But so far it's fairly large. Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's a good group. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: They, if you really, in fact I tell all my clients who are growing the usability groups, you need an internal mentor for them. And I sometimes will have a group of 25 usability engineers and 4 or 5 mentors for the 25 and that's very valuable. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Is that the kind of ratio you need? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I think what, yeah, I think on an ongoing basis if you have an internal mentor, one mentor can handle about four, five people. Dr. Eric Schaffer: This really will take a lot of training. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Is that full time or is that just ... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No, I would say that's like half time. Half the time they'll be mentoring and half the time they would be working on projects or something else like that. So in internal programs, (inaudible) really works, but (inaudible) ask yourself do you have mentors in place? Do you have a facility, you know the environment that's worth everything that we talked about? If you do, then may be that's the way to go. Are you committed to providing all that, you know, and to having some more, if you're going to have an internal mentoring program, you've got to, you can't just switch the mentor or usually the mentor... Dr. Eric Schaffer: Right and then it might be very easy to go oh we have this critical project (inaudible) where's the mentor? (Laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. So you have a commitment to keep it going. And you are obviously mentoring (inaudible) I mean if you just need a little bit, you have 3 people and may be you have a little bit on to you then it's not worth setting up an internal program. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. (Inaudible) question, is it, yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I don't know. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, this is the last. And this which of the following would be best for your organization at this time in an internal mentoring program and external mentoring program where you're not sure because you've been unclear and Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: And (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No one's going to take that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Well (inaudible) really worried about what we can get up to (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: We want you (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No, we can't we're really not sure (inaudible) we actually may not be sure. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Susan will field that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: We're very clear but they're just not sure. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You mean (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Think about it some more seconds to decide. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, that's not in. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: There's only two choices. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I know that. And I know that they can't really pick (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: No, they can't, they can't. I don't know, but you know or both. (Inaudible) or above. Dr. Eric Schaffer: No. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So they're not sure what they're really saying. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It's not (inaudible) (laughter). When people talk when I ask people to think about you know if they're really not interested in mentoring what do we do? These are the questions I ask them to think about. You know, where are you stuck, right? Do you have staff? What does your staff need? Do you have a critical project that you want to move forward in a certain way? What are the missing skill areas? And then the last (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: In terms of critical projects... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: How does (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, we talk about that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Is that a little bit different from consulting, I mean you can (inaudible) and work on a critical project. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You can go sit in the corner and work this out. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Sometimes you have a critical project and you're pretty sure it's got yeah, your staff is doing it and it is going well. And you don't really want a consultant come in, but you just may be would like to check and make sure that you're doing it I mean one (inaudible) and they said you tell us how you would have done that and we'll show you what we did and then let's talk about the process. So it was kind of (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: That kind of best practices. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Aspect to it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. It was such an important project, they didn't want to totally do it on their own. But they didn't want me to tell them how to do it. They just, they wanted me to tell them if I would have done it in a different way. Had I gone about the process in a different way. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And to help them to rationalize what they're doing. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: But this last one is really important too. Because I want to make sure that the users out there who are managers of usability groups you know they need... Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's pretty tactical. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, I mean they need mentoring too. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the institutionalization process and how we see mentoring as in some ways as I looked at it if I've studied if I've been writing about it I see an initial set up phase is very intense. HFI has been doing it in a lot of companies now, establishing a strategy and establishing a methodology and standards and templates and tool sets and then getting the staffing in place. All that is a fairly intensive period which I think kind of gets the rocket off the launch pad right then. I mean it's very fast. It's very reliable. In 153 projects right now we've never had a standard that didn't come together and we've never ended up kind of going well I'll definitely take them to a (inaudible) we've only seen that methodology that we've been able to fit in to every environment because except extreme programming which needs to go away. And we'll talk more about that (laughter). Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) (laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: But then we at that point the organization is going ahead and I think that mentoring is one of the key things, it's almost like a guiding system. It's almost like keeping that rocket on track. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So you're saying you see it at you know after the set up... Dr. Eric Schaffer: You have a set up (inaudible) staff and it's all there. (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So I think... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, I agree. I agree. So that's kind of a you know that's not the skill, that's not the practitioner. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, it's really the executive (inaudible) get their head out of the usability group who's now suddenly faced with the strategy that I came up with may be working with HFI, may be half a year ago, actually (inaudible) because they're finding they have more projects or key issues you don't have to (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Whatever it might be. And so this becomes a way of really keeping it on track. So that's what I'm excited about with mentoring and usability (inaudible). So let's see what, are we getting any questions? Oh we have several (inaudible) okay, okay. So first one. Where is your organization's usability effort? We have 20% that are reporting that they're (inaudible) less scientific reporting, 20% are reporting that they (inaudible) okay and we have 38% that are trying occasional projects. Now this is really fascinating. 39% almost 40% are working to make it routine. That's... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: That's, I'm not surprised by that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think it's really good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's really good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Almost 3% feel (inaudible) so in terms of where we are in the industry, Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: This really points to the exception that we're kind of right coming over the (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And it's moving to main stream. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah, similarly the projects. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. Our organization needs help most in the following usability issues: 42% find too many (inaudible) usability (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) that's great. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's really good. Only 8% getting new hires up to speed. So that... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) Or may be also we've to some extent were moving past the issue of just getting Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) and needing to get more choices sold organize (inaudible) filling gaps and building confidence so that makes sense in terms of Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Getting staff who may be have a good training, may be have some experience that... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: They'll have a few (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Right. A professional development system is 10%, okay. And interesting... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) standing on best practices. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. That's interesting. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. It is interesting to me because in fact it proves that if you think about it, the usability field has so many different kinds of things that we have to do in the user centered design process from subjects to action questionnaires, to remote testing, usability testing, simulation trials, equipments, designer interfaces, Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes (inaudible) and you truly get the group. It's not only best practice but getting the group to really understand what best practice is. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) and best protocol and the methodology yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And I think that that's something that's really I think that's the magic of this decade in usability is moving from each of us doing our own thing for (inaudible) finding those best practices, and moving ahead is really half the way because we are integrated and because we are systematic and because it is well know where our catches can be but something that's repeatable and reliable and (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Is excellent. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Mentoring program. Which of the following best describes your organization? Do you all use formal mentoring now? 40% informal and 60% not doing any kind of mentoring (inaudible). Interesting. So we need to move that ahead. Seems like a great opportunity. And the last one, which of the following will be best for your organization at this time? 27% think internal mentoring will be good. And so those are people hopefully who have senior staff to be able to do that. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: To be able to do that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: 42% external mentoring and 32% Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Not sure. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think you go back can you go back and (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) No. I'm trying to. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Well, actually what you can do is give us a call and Susan will answer it (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. So now we have some questions. Okay. Susan, why did you leave your consulting business to join HFI? Was it difficult to gather new business? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right, oh my goodness! Why did I leave my consulting business to join HFI? You know it wasn't an easy decision. As you know, as you talked to me about it for over for many months... Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I really (inaudible) if I had a list, there are a lot of reasons, so I'm going to boil it down to the most important one for me. I really wanted to focus on doing the work. I really wanted to focus on moving usability to the next level. And I felt like if that in order to do that I needed more people, staff, support, and HFI had like this wonderful you know, there they were. They had the infrastructure, the organization, the people, the staff, and I could then focus on the work and not have to run the business. And I'll be honest with you, I'm not really a very good business manager. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You are really good at mentoring. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Really good at mentoring, I'm really good at usability work. So I really wanted the ability to do the work. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, but I think that's one thing about HFI that I feel very exciting about that really well, if you look at HFI, we're probably, I don't know 3, 5 times bigger than the next biggest company focusing on usability. But it's not just an issue of size, it's an issue of I think we have a focus on really becoming the first company on Earth that's a real, pure usability corporation that isn't just a consultancy and it has some people and they're doing something, but really acts as a company in reliable ways using infrastructure and IT and being able to offer clients a whole another level... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Of support in moving the industry ahead. So... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Let me answer this second one. Was it difficult to, well, everybody is having trouble gathering business these days, but it was a little bit, but that really wasn't. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. People just keep calling you. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. They still do they still call. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, absolutely. I have seen organizations where the process is in place, but at times, it impedes the actual design and completion of a project. Is it appropriate at times to "streamline" the process? How can you best handle this? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Do you want me to answer that or do you want... Dr. Eric Schaffer: I have some thoughts on it but I have tell you that I (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, alright. I'll talk faster. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Actually you can streamline the process and it works something like I actually try not to use a methodology because that implies you must do step 3.1.4.6. A good methodology should be flexible. There's always a real life and time constraints and after the serious evolution of best practice and work through training the organization in how to do the usability, you often have to be flexible. So one of the things that's very important is to know for this project where are the critical parts of the methodology that you better not skip or you're not doing usability. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I have a whole another side of it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: What's your side? Dr. Eric Schaffer: And the side of it is that you're wrong. Okay. Usability doesn't impede the process. It doesn't make it slower. It makes it faster. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I don't think they meant I thought they meant to use... Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) usability process is in place, but at times it implies the process. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The actual design. I thought they meant that doing you know the process (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Well, (inaudible) you're right. You can take the methodology and streamline it and there are lot of ways to make it more efficient. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: The second thing is that it's nuts, it's crazy to do a project without doing usability work and to skip that... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I mean look at the kind of numbers where sales doubled because they do usability work, not doing usability work, how can that be an option? But even more so if you do usability work and you don't have the infrastructure in place, you're reinventing the wheel every time you do a questionnaire, every time you do (inaudible) 20 or 30 deliverable documents and yes, it's (inaudible). So by having an institutionalized process the usability work gets so much faster that I think you won't have as much of the need to say okay we need to cut back, we'll just skip this usability practice... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's because the usability tests are faster. The design is faster. And Royal Bank said, you know, just having the standards in place (inaudible) more than 10% in their overall development. That's what the crux of usability is 10% so we're covered. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: We're free. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So yes or no? Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You can't answer all (laughter). Alright. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, we're not going to do that, sorry. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Well. Susan, who currently mentors you? Eric, who currently mentors you? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh that's a great question. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's a great question. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You know who currently mentors me (laughter) I'm going to sound weird. In a lot of ways my clients mentor me. Because by working with them I learn its best by getting ready for mentoring sessions with them I learn the stuff. An then the other people who mentor me are colleagues. I mean the conversations that I have with every usability people, working on projects, that's how I get my therapy. And how I go to the next level. I would say those are the two (inaudible). What do you do? Dr. Eric Schaffer: Susan certainly... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Eric. (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) That's for sure. You've already discovered that (inaudible) days together and (inaudible) and I think that it's true the clients do. And it's also true that the staff here does a beautiful job of that. Jay More, the President, Brian Floyd, our Head of Marketing, all of them help give me feedback and teach me. And that's an ongoing process. One of the great things about this field is you know I've been 25 years in the field and a day doesn't go by when I don't learn something new in design, something new in the structure of business, so there are so many interesting things. So... Have you done any usability mentoring with groups? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh it's Extreme Programming. Dr. Eric Schaffer: who have adopted the Extreme Programming methodology? Specifically, how do you approach gathering user data, developing user personas, and conducting user-centered design, establishing UI guidelines, and performing usability tests in the fast-paced, ridiculous oh sorry fast-paced, 2-week iteration world of Extreme Programming? (Laughter) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Is that the next web cast we'll talk about that. What do you want to say, Eric, because I can't do it. Well, I guess the fast answer is you know alright how am I doing, so I'm going to answer the easy one. Have I done any usability mentoring with these groups? No. That's the fast answer. And the other one about how do you do all that, I don't think you do it. I don't think you can. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think Extreme Programming is one of the long series of mistakes. And I think you know I can look back to so many generations of bad ideas in development. And Extreme Programming is the (inaudible) of the you know you start coding and I'll go upstairs and ask people what they want. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: But it has two good ideas in it. But we certainly don't get this stuff (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: We're not going to (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I'm going to say two good ideas (inaudible) this is an example of having some good ideas but then having to go away. (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Very good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Very important. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And feedback. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yes. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Very important. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yes. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So those are two good ideas, but Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) So the answer is that in order to do usability work right, you really can't do it within the context of Extreme Programming. Extreme Programming doesn't work. I've never seen a successful project that was of any size that... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, certainly size wise I mean you can certainly do you could do all of these things user data, personas on a little project in a day. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah, really low. How do you coach usability professionals about addressing objections to qualitative findings with comments such as, 1) Can you make any conclusions based on 5 people?; 2) How did you select your sample? I mean was it a wise set of criteria? To make my last question clear, how did you mentor clients of usability studies so that they have confidence to take action based on the results? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You know I just did a session Dr. Eric Schaffer: Really? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Just like this, yes. In fact, the mentoring session was on usability matrix. I had a couple of people say you know we need to be able to answer this question. So I actually had a whole set of research study about you know outside people and how do you collect your sample. And so during mentoring you know I laid out the reasons why 5 people might be enough (inaudible) 5 people aren't enough. And so I gave them you know part of what mentoring is about is giving them confidence and then giving them the research, giving them the articles so they can go back and they can say okay you know, here's what I have learnt and they can say that with confidence. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And I think that's a beautiful point. What I found is that any (inaudible) coming out of an undergraduate degree and experimental site can run a classical study with 300 subjects and (inaudible). But to get data that's useful for design in a dynamic environment with the kind of and you know may be low but you know still we're not running from a business centeric most of the time. We must be running 5 dozen or 2 dozen or 3 dozen subjects and to get that data and be able to interpret it and to be able to know how to use it to inform the design, I think that takes more... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, you know this idea of a usability matrix though is the real key one. I think we should suggest to Bryan a web cast on that. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) After the Extreme Programming it will be interesting. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) That is the next question. Okay. What's the best way to get buy-in from upper management to do mentoring for usability? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I think to lay out the to make a list of what's the critical issues, whether that be skills that we have doubts in or strategies that need fine tuning, to lay out you know it's like here are the key five topics that we really, really need. And to show that if we could get these, here's what we could do better, faster, more of... Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think that's true, but I think that there's another side to it. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay, what's that? Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think that Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) the mentoring. Dr. Eric Schaffer: The mentoring. Well, coming to that too, the thing is that getting upper management to buy into mentoring is the portion of getting upper management buying to institutionalization of usability. Once you say usability is a critical success factor, it's a differentiator, if we don't have this it's part of our corporate record for our as a part of our core competencies, we're out of business. And when they realize that that's true and they start saying I'm committing you know 10% of my development budget to usability and that's pretty much what we're seeing in the industry, that means if you have 500 people on staff, you're pretty much a 50% usability team doing the math. (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Laughter) The other thing is that mentoring actually of all the things you could do like consulting, doing training in house which are all the things, but mentoring is like one of the most cost effective. You're talking about a couple of you know small peas. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But I would also suggest that mentoring in vacuum would do only very limited good. So (inaudible) an organization to have no methodology (inaudible) no tool set, no training, and (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: You might send the executives to mentoring. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And ask why they are you know 10 years behind time, but anyway. Okay. If usability efforts are scattered in the organization at higher management level, IT Department, and nobody owns it, who should be mentored first? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So the usability is scattered all over (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Around the IT department so there's no central group. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: So what we're saying is you need a central group. In order to institutionalize usability... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The main answer is whoever is going to get the central group going is the one to come in mentoring. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Absolutely. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Okay. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) I mean I'm sorry. I don't see any way you can have a long-term successful... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You won't if it's not centeric. If it is not only, we need to have people just first (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes. Every time they scatter them it's like the end. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Right, absolutely. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: How do you work with the executive champion to avoid usability as an edict? Helping everyone to see the value and want to do this correctly rather than as something they have to do. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: What is the (inaudible) answer that Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) it is a good question. Well, Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, so I'm going to start it by the (inaudible) that it isn't edict. I mean there is a point at which if you're really going to cross the chasm and then what you're going to do is it's an edict. I mean this is something the organization does. You know I think that the key thing is everywhere, I mean you're not going to get everyone, right. I mean and if I can afford to read a book that will save you a lot of time. You talked about that, (inaudible) those are the people who provided (inaudible) those are going to be resistant to it. But putting that aside, you definitely have to help the majority of the people. Dr. Eric Schaffer: To get there. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So you would do an executive briefing, management briefing, (inaudible) you got to touch the people at the top and you got to touch the people at the down the (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's a general (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I don't know (inaudible) training I would say and then comes the (inaudible) projects really you know high level important mission, critical show case (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) showcase and tell people (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: And show case or just excited about it or the key people get excited about it. Those should be the two things, the training and the show case. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think that's right. I think there's nothing quite like seeing concrete examples of usability really making the difference to design and really making the difference in the business. And being able to see the dollar effect of it, but also being able to see gosh, yeah I can see why people got stuck there and that wasn't obvious to the team. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And we discovered that so. Could you please comment on any adoption or use of adult learning theory and/or learning styles for those in mentorship roles? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I truly mean for the person doing the mentoring for the mentor or do they mean the (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: I'm assuming that as you mentor Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Do you apply (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh yeah absolutely. I mean my background is (inaudible) psychology and educational psychology. So yes, you've absolutely got that. I mean that's part of working in a small group, right. So you have some people who I mean I (inaudible) like to read. So part of the mentoring is we give them a library of books and they read and they have homework and they discuss it and then come back and then we have other people who you know Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: They cannot read but (inaudible) to reading, may be there's a lot of pictures in the book and so they're going to do (inaudible). You have to get to know the person what is the best (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: What suggestions do you have for starting a peer-mentoring (intra-organizational) program? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, I think that's different. I think that's really important okay, and really when I hear peer-mentoring intra-organizational I think more of sharing ideas and having the group come together and share the projects that they're working on. And that's actually very critical, but coming (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: It's almost your support group. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: In a way I've defined it. Because here I'm defining the mentoring being really you know being that expert of teacher going to the teacher. So, I think Dr. Eric Schaffer: Both things are good. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Both things are necessarily very important. So you know quick suggestions for how to get that started would be to have everyone in the organization make a list of what are the topics and things they would like to talk about and hear about from others. And then figuring out you know who, if someone says I really like to discuss you know different techniques for doing interviews, who in the organization would be particularly good at speaking so that's set up the series you know once a month or whatever works for you. And everybody does a presentation on this all the time. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay I got (inaudible) So and if you think about that this is the idea of (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Coming together and one of the things that Susan's setting up is distance education technology so that we will have a program of advanced topics that I think are just perfect to go into sort of be the (inaudible) of these meetings. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) peer mentoring. I agree with you. Dr. Eric Schaffer: But another one is as you go to get the groups together, Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And as you go to create that community invention, Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: I think that that those advanced distance learning programs are going to be really, really good (inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Oh you know some of these groups may have to do with systems (inaudible) because they may not all be in one place. Dr. Eric Schaffer: How much basic usability training should I have before I get involved in a mentoring program? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I (inaudible) to this before because I really think you need you know a few courses as (inaudible) who you are. So here's a strategy person, right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And it's different. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: You may not need anything or you might have to but you got to check another practitioner. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Right. You should have come to at least one at least one what we call core course like the Dr. Eric Schaffer: The web cast. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: The web cast right. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: So at least one. I mean you're really better if you come (inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Inaudible) Dr. Susan Weinschenk: It is better if he is taking most of the core classes, but at least one. It's just not sufficient to come if you (inaudible). Dr. Eric Schaffer: Right. You get tired of saying (inaudible) (laughter). How much funding would you think an organization with 5 usability analysts should set aside for mentoring annually? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I don't know that. Do you know the answer for that? Dr. Eric Schaffer: That is a good question. I guess you have to call in to get (inaudible) Let's just talk about how much you know if you're talking about 5 analysts. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Five analysts. Dr. Eric Schaffer: And how often would you expect them to come, may be the top person more often or what's your general suggestion? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Well, let's just talk about just the middle program. So not just kind of average thing. I would think you may want to have (Inaudible) I would want to break them up into two sessions of two people and three people, not all five because they might not all have the same interest. That's typical. And each set is going to come twice. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Twice a year. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Twice a year. And then you may need then may be use a strategy (inaudible) just for the practitioner one. I would say (inaudible) one to four sessions. But I haven't been with HFI long enough to know how much that costs so call and (laughter) (inaudible) what the price is I don't know yet. Dr. Eric Schaffer: (Laughter) They do know actually. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: I don't know. They know. Dr. Eric Schaffer: That's okay. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yeah. I don't know. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay. Do you feel that the principles you have discussed today are applicable to areas other than usability? Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Yes, they are. And I gave a thought about (inaudible) about mentoring. Really the idea is any time you have a set of skills, knowledge, yes. So you could apply all of this to any other field. Dr. Eric Schaffer: Okay, very good. Well, I'd like to thank you for joining us. This has been a lot of fun and a great... Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Great fun. Can we do it again? Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah. We'll definitely (inaudible) We really promised about (laughter) so we have to come back. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: (Inaudible) Dr. Eric Schaffer: Yeah really and so I'd like to thank Dr. Susan Weinschenk for joining us today, joining HFI, and we're going to rock and roll and see usability move forward in the real sense. Thanks for joining us. Dr. Susan Weinschenk: Thanks. |
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